#2: Fuadi Pitsuwan

Fuadi Pitsuwan - Beanspire

In this second episode I’m talking to Fuadi Pitsuwan, one of the founders of Beanspire coffee, Thailand.


Fuadi is one of the two founders of Beanspire Coffee and owns the dry mill in Mae Kha Jan with Jane Kittarattanapaiboon from where they process the coffee from surrounding coffee farmers and farming families.  Fuadi is the son of former Thai minister of foreign affairs and combines his work for Beanspire with a PhD in International Relations at Oxford University.

In this episode Fuadi and I discuss the (local) Thai coffee culture, the impact of Covid-19 on his company and connected farmers, the Thai coffee price breakdown and value and a lot more.


Fuadi has a big passion for coffee and overall equal collaborations, a truly honest and inspiring guy worth following throughout his further career.


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June 19, 2020


1h 05m 53s


Jeroen Brugman, Fuadi Pitsuwan


Ikigai Podcast design


[00:00:00] Welcome to the Work That Matters podcast by IKIGAI COFFEE. My name is Jeroen Brugman and I’m your host talking to the people behind the work that matters. If you want to find out more about this episode or any other episodes, please visit www.ikigai.coffee and I hope to see you there. 

Jeroen Brugman: [00:00:19] In this episode I’m talking to Fuadi Pitsuwan from Thailand. He’s the co-founder of Beanspire and the MAE KHA JAN dry mill in the Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai region in the north of Thailand. He’s the son of former Minister of Foreign Affairs Surin Pitsuwan and currently studies international relations at Oxford University. I hope you’ll enjoy this episode.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:00:45] I’m curious where it goes with the Covid-19 issue, because it seems like it can go two ways. One way is more towards consumer awareness and the other ways more towards a cheaper product, because people will have less of a budget and will have to keep their own heads above the water.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:01:03] Yes, I think that is the question that I have been thinking about a lot. I actually asked, you know, there was a report by the SCA that linked up with data from Square that came out looking at data and sales and it talks a lot about positive things, about how online sales increased by 5000 percent. About how..

Jeroen Brugman: [00:01:30] Five thousand, wow. 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:01:31] Yeah. Five thousand plus percent or something like that. I am not sure. And you need to check. But then but then most of those numbers are too positive for what I’m feeling and I’m really. And that was a median number of online price of all of the spending of the people that have been spending online. It was fourteen point five dollars or something. per order. And I’m wondering. But then the the report didn’t say. What was it like before? You know, you can’t really compare that. The valuable number will be what was the median price of the value per order that people have been ordering online and what is it like now? Does it drop? Does it go up? And how is it going to drop to three months from now? I think that is a good number to monitor whether people are going for the cheaper price, racing to the bottom, the cheapest price they can buy to get coffe, or are people willing to pay for more sustainable coffee?

Jeroen Brugman: [00:02:29] Yeah, I think we’re gonna get like a schizophrenic market.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:02:35] Yeah

Jeroen Brugman: [00:02:35] It’s like completely polarized. I think people will go for lower and people will go for a higher and better stories, more trust. I’m noticing it here locally as well. I don’t know how it goes for you as in supporting local entrepreneurs. I’m talking to entrepreneurs here locally that do local logistics on electric bikes like delivering meal boxes from local producers. They’ve tripled their businesses.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:03:13] Yeah, because people support local more. Right?

Jeroen Brugman: [00:03:16] Yeah and that’s a good thing. What about, What about coffee that are not from locals as you like, you may be a local roaster to some, but then you’re sourcing coffee from a really far away land. Are they supporting that as well? Are they seeing that as more foreign? So they try to find something more that they give up coffee to get altogether because the Dutch don’t really don’t grow coffee. 

Jeroen Brugman: [00:03:16] Yeah.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:03:43] So I wonder if that sentiment would be would be good. Would it be good for the industry?

Jeroen Brugman: [00:03:50] Some grow coffee. You know, John Schot fromRotterdam,

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:03:56] Like they grow, they grow in a greenhouse?

Jeroen Brugman: [00:04:01] No, his wife has an atelier or no, it’s his roastery he has one plant that gave fruits.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:04:10] Yeah. Whether the focus on locally sourced product supporting local product will be good for farmers from far away land. You know what I mean? Because it’s. Before this we were all linked up. And whatever you buy in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands, would mean something for farmers in Thailand, in, you know, in Vietnam, in other places. But then if there’s too much focus on locally sourced product, then I wonder if the Third World country who have needed support from buyers from Europe would be impacted. Well, when the local demand on their side on in that country are not that high, but these kind of products.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:04:55] That’s an interesting thing, because then you should dive into the psychology of why people are going back to local, because there is a lack of trust and there is an increase of fear. Yeah. And I think people are as are buying more local and supporting their locals just to keep everything near their place. And not going global anymore.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:05:19] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:05:20] Unless and that is where the specialty coffee industry is really good at: Unless you can provide a fully transparent story and unless you can actually create the same transparency as you have with local producers in your value chain in specialty coffee. And if for me as a roaster, if I can communicate that story towards the end consumer, they will support me, first of all, they will double support me because they know there’s an even a better feeling for them, a better emotion for them to purchase with that local producer that is supporting a producer somewhere else. On the world. But, of course, this is hypothetically. This is what’s what I would say. So. In terms of the specialty coffee, I think the coffee farmers might be supported as well. In terms of commodity and commercial coffee, I think that it is going down fast.That is a different story. What do you think?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:06:36] I really don’t know. I have see, I mean, my  orders have been cancelled a lot because of this and so my strategy is just to send more samples to more roasters. Everyone is, I expect everyone will be buying less. Some of my friends I think will go out of business and so will not be able to buy at all. So I’ve been trying to send more samples to people hoping that those, you know, who can buy 10 bags, who buy five for which mean I have to double the number of people that I’m selling to. So that’s what I’ve been doing. But then the Covid really hit us in a worse in the worst possible time because our harvest has just ended. So we were projecting, you know, business as usual and  making a lot more. We grow this year and then it hit. So. So. 

Jeroen Brugman: [00:07:28] Being optimistic and making a lot of costs.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:07:31] Yeah. And then and now we’re stuck with with a lot of coffee. So we are trying to find ways to release that coffee now. Yeah. And everything is also delayed. I think people are just starting to get our samples in Europe and in the US because the logistical system around the world is also broken by this, because when all the commercial airlines are closed and shut down. They are not operating. Then you can’t send normal mail. So which means everything will have to go through the year, through the ash out to FedEx to through U.P.S.. That kind of services because they have their own plane. So every hour they are really overwhelmed by it. So everything seems delayed by them too. So yeah. Samples have been stuck more than a month in Bangkok and are stuck more in Europe to trying to find its way to the potential buyers. Yeah, well, that’s one thing people don’t really hear. I think farmers are definitely having tougher time sending samples to buyers in Europe.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:08:32] Now, I think you’re actually one of the more blessed. Of course, you’re not a producer, but the producer is connected to you and to be inspired are more blessed with an international connection.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:08:47] Yes.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:08:49] And there are not many producers that actually have that that can actually sentd samples. So they’re fully dependent on the. Yeah. Export that just aims on A coffee market that has no identity. 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:09:02] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:09:03] And just shooting for for the mass or for the volume. That’s… I was try I was thinking before starting this this podcast I’m going to avoid the subject of COVID 19. Oh, but it’s impossible. I mean,

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:09:21] Impossible, we are talking about how it will impact us. Well, I think the real impact, the total impact will not be seen for a while. Yeah

Jeroen Brugman: [00:09:30] So how are you coping? Currently you’re in in Thailand right now.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:09:36] I am in Thailand. I was, I actually just flew down to to Bangkok yesterday. I was in Chiang Mai the whole time during during COVID. But things are starting to to ease up now in Thailand. So I flew back to Bangkok just to visit my  mom and then go back up in a few days to to Chiang Mai in Chiang Rai and base there. We have a coffee mill there then where we do all the sorting or the milling where the harvest finished in early April. And then and then so now we were milling and everything is delayed. Harder to find labor because of COVID, movement, everything is slower. So and people are just starting to get our samples. So we’re still waiting to hear back from people to see if we can export in that large enough volume to stay with safe costss, because the more you export, there is a fixed costs. When you export, the more you export that fixed got the shipping costs. The packing, documention costs will be lower. We’re trying to to rally up the volume to to a reasonable amount.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:10:41] Yeah. So, of course, you’re talking about the processing station. You’re talking about the one in MAE KHA JAN right?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:10:49] Yes. uhm, the only one really I speak about is the one in MAE KHA JAN. That’s ours. It’s a dry mill where we collect parchments from a few mountains and coffee growing regions around that. This is this is located between Chiang Mai and Ching Rai. I think a few or many of the listeners of this podcast may have been to Chiang Mai and Northern Thailand for vacation. I think Thailand has has a lot of. 

Jeroen Brugman: [00:11:16] It’s a really popular place right?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:11:17] Yeah. It’s a popular tourist destination and a lot of buyers come to Thailand not to buy coffee bur more for vacation and say, oh, there is coffee here. Let’s let’s go see a coffee plantation. Maybe we can buy some. I actually know a lot of potential buying happened that way. Came for other reason. Yeah. Yeah. So. So I’m talking about MAE KHA JAN. That’s where the Beanspire mill is located. So that’s the lot that we export to the US. But we also exported other lots as well to Europe. And we also exported other  lots, more micro lot more single origin kind of lot. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:11:53] Yeah. The micro lots from, for example, the single farm fine robusta’s by Thawat Khoniak or Hneng

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:12:02] Yeah. Yeah. Hneng. He is a farmer from robusta from southern Thailand. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:12:08] It’s actually a nice story, it’s cool.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:12:09] He is actually in a wheelchair. So this is more of a farmer that, that does this through to his mind. You know he has helper but, but all the processing he controls it. But the legworks and arms work that require physical lifting, physical activity. And then he has, you know, other people helping him.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:12:31] It was a I haven’t been to Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai yet. I was planning to to visit you last year. May it was, I believe. Yeah. Due to the the smog. The air quality. Oh, yes, it was. Is this still going on?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:12:48] Yes. It’s still going on, it’s a yearly seasonal thing. Last year was bad but this year I feel like it was worse. One of the historic, you know, what you call a level of air pollution that we had. It’s a problem, I think. I don’t know why the authority can’t seem to be able to deal with it. Partly it’s a cultural issue as well. I mean, the way we have farmers and people who live in the mountain have been engaging in certain kind of farming. But then you know, it’s really hard to blame them because I think it’s much more of a structural issue because the food that are consumed by people in the low land are grown in the mountain. Are you ready to stop eating those products. A lot of people get blamed for the smog and people who grow corn for animal feed. And then, you know, are we ready to stop eating meat that used that kind of corn to feed the meat and then it’s all connected. So it’s really hard to find one person who to get the blame for this. And if you, you know, like a lot of it, even like tumeric, even if even like tumeric you consume in Europe, I mean, some of those are grown in the Thai mountain. And it requires slashing burns.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:14:10] It requires, what, slash and burns?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:14:12] Yeah. So, you know, when when you know crops such as ginger, such as turmeric, roots that suck a lot of nutrients. That’s why they’re really healthy. But because all these are so good for health, because the roots s contains so much nutrients, you cannot grow the same anything after you show us to grow ginger or turmeric in the same land. So the farmer would have to move to another plot of land. And then you have to burn down, clear the land because clearing the land by burning also adds nutrients back into the soil. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:14:50] Well, I did not know that! So that is also the case with the with corn,

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:14:54] Corn and ginger and tumeric. Corn is more corn is more, more just volume based and a different reason, a different reason why people burn. Yeah,

Jeroen Brugman: [00:15:04] Wow, that’s interesting.I was already curious why is it that the smog is so intense? .

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:15:10] So that is already an ongoing problem for many years. But I think lately, I think climate change has a lot of issue too. So is a compounded, you know. So the drying, the lack of rain also generate naturally caused forest fires as well. So when a fire breaks out will broke out, we don’t really know whether it’s done by manmade or is it naturally occurring through climate change. So it’s all mixed up and you don’t really add. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:15:39] Oh man

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:15:39] And the authority seems not capable of dealing with this. I don’t know why. 

Jeroen Brugman: [00:15:47] Speaking of authority and politics. You studied at Harvard and Oxford.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:15:54] Yes, I am doing a I’m actually a PhD student at Oxford now. Still, it’s been almost six years. I started in coffee formally when I started my PhD. So that’s a really bad decision to start a company, start exporting coffee while doing a PhD. So I get to do both things. But sometimes I regret as well not being able to focus on one thing and then excel in it. So, but then everything is doing ok. But but I feel sometimes. I have to split the time between the two.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:16:31] Yeah, yeah, I’ve known you for a couple of years now via This Side Up. I think the first time we met was, was it an Amsterdam during the Producer Crossover or before?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:16:43] I think so. At least in the Crossover. But maybe before that.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:16:49] And well, I’ve I’ve noticed also due to our contact, we had a drink to connect Beanspire and beans by producers connected producers to the middle large roasteries.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:17:03] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:17:04] Which is quite a task. We’ve noticed a lot of bureaucratic  details that have to be filled in which don’t quite are are necessary for. Yeah. For a quality product. Yeah. But I’ve noticed you are a one of the people I know that is really well taught or well trained. Your field of expertise is not at all limited by specialty coffee. So you of course you, you are the owner or manager is. Are you the owner of Beanspire?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:17:45] I am the owner. Yeah. There are two co-founders in Beanspire. It’s my friend who is based in Chiangrai all the time. She runs a mill there. Her name is Jane and people don’t really see her, but she is the more important part of Beanspire actually. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:18:05] Yeah. And you two run Beanspire but I also know you are quite knowledgeable about politics. A lot more other subjects than Coffee. Your father also was in politics ?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:18:20] He was in politics for a long time. He passed away , two years ago. Two and a half years ago though and he was quite a well-known diplomat and a political figure in Thailand. So after my father passed away, there was a there has been a lot of expectation about me. Whatever I say, it seems to touch more as tension. People seem to look toward me more in the past. I feel like I use coffee as a. Coffee is a passion. So I use it to get out of this social expectation, political expectation. And I really enjoy working with the farmers, seeing my coffee, the coffee that I helped create and export, being in for example, your bag; Ikigai Coffee. I just create that feeling of total satisfaction that I have never really enjoyed from any other kind of work that I have done. But then but then my formal training is not, and background before coffee was something else. It was I did my undergrad in international relations, my master in international relations, my Ph.D. in international relations and in politics. My dad was a diplomat. So when after he passed away, people really expected me to step up. And then I still enjoy working in coffee and taking my time. But.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:19:50] Are you living up to the expectations or are you.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:19:52] That I don’t know. I think  I told people that. I told people that even if I don’t decide to join politics, Thai politics, in the end, it will be my choice because I have I have chosen. I found coffee.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:20:06] Yeah, that was my next question.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:20:09] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:20:10] Instead of living up to the expectations, whether you are choosing your own direction. Yeah. . In life you were on your path.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:20:17] I mean, I have chosen coffee, but I’m not sure  if I eventually. If there is opportunity. I’m not close to it. I’ve been involved in helping people shaping up political movements. Talking media asked me for political opinions. So I’ve been giving but I’m really taking my time. And I think in a good democracy, in a healthy kind of political system, it shouldn’t be just a legacy. It shouldn’t be like, oh, because my dad was active in politics, he passed away. So I should be expected to step up. It should be me when I feel ready, when I feel like I understand the country enough. I have I have something that I feel I can contribute. And I’m not sure if I’m really there yet at this point.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:21:07] I can imagine, it has to come from yourself instead of from there. Yeah I meant that. Yeah that I can imagine so. So you run Beanspire. Although Jane is running Beanspire.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:21:17] Yeah. I mean for the past, I mean since I started I actually spent a lot more time, not a lot more time, a lot of time in the UK. But I flew back pretty often too. But I’m always now during harvest season which happened to be at the same time during the winter break in the UK from my study So, so, so December, January, February. I am also a PhD students that you can actually skip that, you know, like you don’t really have to go to show up as often as undergrad students do. So I usuall spend three, four months at least per year doing a season, working with farmers, trying to improve the quality. And then I, I take the samples and go back to Europe, or and then I asked my brother and Jane to help send samples. So  it has worked that way until I came back to Thailand last year to be stationary here full time.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:22:17] In Thailand,

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:22:18] In Thailand. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:22:19] OK. Yeah, and you’re quite internationally rooted. I can say and that is also part of the success or the startup is that we could describe Beanspire as a startup. Right.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:22:35] Yeah. I mean, It has been in startup for five or six years, but it’s good enough in a sense that we don’t really make much money. I’m just actually starting to pay myself this year. But then because I have always got a scholarship. So, so a scholarship from Harvard. From Oxford. Help me travel around and work in coffee. I’m not sure that , my Oxford friend, will hear this, or  professor at Oxford will hear this. But that helped for a long time.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:23:03] Haha, be careful hey.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:23:05] Yeah. And then I start the business is OK enough now that we have some cash to pay me or some certain cash flow of retraction that. Oh, we can pay ourselves a little bit now, but then a COVID 19 hit, you know, and then BAM! Everything kind of burst. All that Plans, all that dreams  of making a sustainable business. Now it becomes a start up again.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:23:27] Yeah.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:23:28] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:23:28] Beanspire is quite unique in Thailand.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:23:31] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:23:32] For what I’ve seen. The Thai coffee has quite a bad reputation.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:23:36] Yep.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:23:38] In terms of quality. I don’t know about the ethics of the coffee in Thailand. Maybe you could tell me more about that.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:23:46] I mean, I think the bad reputation probably comes from, you know, people expect Asian. I’m not not just Thailand. Asian coffee in general to be more of a robusta instant coffee kind of coffee, you know, and people don’t really. People who work on Arabica never really understood how to process it well or how. More like. How to store it. Well, how to send the right kind of sample. What kind of sample? What kind of coffee the market in Europe in the US would be looking for. I think the fact that I have live in the US and in Europe help me understand that. So when I talk to you, when I talk to Lennart, I can speak in a coffee language, you know. And then I think people who have because it has been a closed market for a long time and we seem to be able to enjoy. Which is one sense. This is a very positive thing. But if you are thinking about making Thailand well known in the world, being able to to communicate in a coffee language that a foreigner would understand. knowing that expectation. I think that link was missing. So I was trying to help fill that gap.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:25:00] How would you describe that coffee language?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:25:02] Like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, you know, scoring, wise tasting note, sorting the way specialty coffee expected to be sorted. Knowing that this coffee will be good for espresso. Knowing that this coffee will be good for filter if you process like this it would be too fermenty for you. If it processed this way, then it will be good for someone else . This kind of understanding. Yeah. Or knowing the roaster well enough the market well enough that you know, certain kind of roasters there would only like washed coffee, really bright coffee which I mean Thai coffee will not fit there or some, some roasters will like more you know, floral or not floral. Oh more, more, more winy. More fruity then than we might fit our roasted and like more body or do medium roast that did we do our wash might fit there. You know, it’s this kind of understanding is you really have to know people and converse a lot with the people in the industry to really understand. And the key too is English, I think. I think the only mean different. I have other than my friends who are doing all these farmings who technically speaking, when they’re doing farming or processing, is probably better than me. But that ability to understand the expectations. So my role is to translate that expectation to farmers, to producer to other people who  want to export as well. Because I don’t think I can be the one who who does this alone if it’s going to be an origin that can create a level of excitement, you know.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:26:39] Yeah. Have you noticed any any trends internationally?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:26:43] Oh, definitely. I think the past couple of years. 

Jeroen Brugman: [00:26:46] If You’re talking about a washed coffees or naturals or experimental or…

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:26:50] Oh Yes. Yes. I have a lot to say about that. I’d love further trend in trend in Asian coffee first. I feel like the past few years and there’s been a lot of focus on Asian coffee. I think particularly we probably have to thank SARA as well for for working on Myanmar. I think the money, the USAID money development money that has been poured into Myanmar. Hiring a good consultant and quality improvement marketing wise from CQI. I think that helps put a spot on Asian coffee. It’s spilled over to other parts of Asia as well. And so I feel like we  benefit somewhat from that from that excitement because the industry has been everywhere. I’ve been to Bolivia, to Burundi, to Africa. I think the next frontier is Asian coffee. So in that sense, the past year I’ve seen a lot more demand and more a lot more opening about about what Asia could offer in terms of specialty coffee.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:27:54] You don’t not come across the Asian coffees that often. Yeah, of course you do in commodity.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:28:01] Yes.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:28:01] But not in a specialty coffee. Yeah. As soon as there are specialty Asian coffees. That actually have a high quality, those are interesting. Yes there is, they are unique.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:28:16] Yeah. And then if it, if it’s good enough to be in specialty and then one thing that if there is no demand that then people will go back to commodity to produce more commodity. So it’s really important to for buyers to keep buying for it to keep getting better or maintain this level of, you know, a specialtyness and effort that that farmers put into it. So this this COVID thing, I think you might. I’m really worried about it, that it would change that commitment, that expectation and that demand for the farmers to keep doing a good job.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:28:49] Yeah, I share that same concern and partially because, of course, for me as a roaster, I have customers in the hospitality, there is a big risk because I am doing only specialty coffee. Yep. You’re at higher prices for my coffee. There is a risk that the next generation of hospitality, that the next businesses of hotels and restaurants and cafes, that they will choose a cheaper product just because of necessity.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:29:31] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:29:32] But but then it comes back to that that split in the market again. I’m also quite hopeful that they might also choose a better product. So less volume but more specified and more, which includes more value. So aiming more on the value side of the products and the market instead of the pricing side of the markets.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:29:56] Yeah, I think I think the emphasis on value, I think is really important. You know, it may not because Thai coffee, if I have to speak on behalf of Thai coffee, because Thai coffee, if at this certain price, for example, our typical, you know, eighty three point white coffee will already be at least three point five dollars per pound. That will be about, you know, eight dollars plus per pound. Yeah. And if a roaster really just cares about quality and taste. Then, you know, you can find much cheaper coffee at eighty three point from Brazil or from Nicaragua for other countries. But I think to buy Thai coffee, it offers something else because we are from a higher or middle income country. Who have local demand. Farmers are young because at this price you pay then then then farmer that you children of farmers decide to come back to farming. You see a lot of that effect in Thailand about how our farmers is a much younger on average. And there they are experimental. But there are certain things that, you know, they can’t really do. I like to expect that our wash and right now to get to like eighty seven point in for like 20 tonnes. It’s really, really difficult for anyone to do so. So if you judge by if you just buy quality price effort and sustainability, then then, you know, higher price for your coffee should be supported as well.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:31:34] Yeah. Thailand is quite unique in that. Yeah. you’ve told me before we’ve had this conversation. Yeah. It’s quite interesting that of course it’s the same as I had in the conversation with Sara. And it’s, of course, the big elephant in the room where coffee farmers don’t receive enough to cover costs of production so they turn to other crops and they turn to a higher risk, higher pay. Younger generations of coffee farmers are are not motivated. There’s no incentive to lure them into the profession of coffee farming. And in that term, Thailand is quite, quite unique because that what you mentioned earlier in our earlier conversation, that all the coffee farmers are young, that is something that other coffee producing countries can learn from where the average age is, is rising and rising and the younger coffee producers are not following up.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:32:35] Yeah, I mean, I’ve said before, I, I feel like, you know, there is a certain price point that. You should be buying. People should be buying a 83-84 point coffee. I mean, if we expect lower and the specialty coffee to be cost two point five dollars per pound, then it’s really hard to to motivate people to keep coming back to farming because that will be a majority of bulk coffee that any farmer anyone could produce. If you see one top quality coffee from certain places, certain region, not all of it. are like that. Even if you put 100 percent of the effort, most of their coffee will still be washed at 84, 83-84 point coffee. And in to, to not be able to find good enough market or higher price point market for that I think would hurt the farmer. So. So that’s why when smaller specialty roasters really talk a lot about buying higher priced buy coffee, but buy like, you know, one or two bags, then then I feel like I feel like it miss certain kind of what you call, ah, of a message of a picture that producer would  want to communicate. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:34:02] Just to emphasize. To clarify. We’re talking about the points here. 80-84 points. Of course, for the listener that is not well known with scoring of coffees. 80 + points is officially specialty coffee. And there are some that say specialty to me is 86+  points. So you can actually compare to a school grading. So if the coffee scores an eight or 80 points or higher, it’s it’s a high quality coffee. Yeah.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:34:39] I mean, if you get to 86 people say it’s like one percent in the world. So the one percent in terms of quality in the world. So most of the coffee we see in normal kind of coffee shop will be below specialty grade. 

Jeroen Brugman: [00:34:54] Probably the smaller espresso bars will be between 80 and 86.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:34:59] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:35:00] Do you know the percentage of coffees that is being produced at 80+ just specialty and. 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:35:05] I think 80 plus will probably be about 20 percent of the whole total production in the world.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:35:09] I think what people have said and the figures vary and then no one really know, but people say 86 point plus, will be like top one percent in the world. But what people need to understand is that to be for any farmer to be able to produce e86 point point coffee, that will be even more quantity or volume that they would need to survive on, they need to produce between eighty point and eighty six point. So so I think it’s good to it’s good to be balanced. It’s good to  support super high quality coffee. But also, don’t forget about don’t look down on it. I think everyone has their own market segment. You know what I mean. So at least just be respectful to any kind of buyer, because from a farming perspective. From a producer perspective. Every Coffee. Even the defects. We’ll need to find a home for us to make a sustainable livelihood.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:36:07] Yeah, I can imagine, of course the eighty six point coffees are higher. Yeah. Those are more like marketing tools for you.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:36:14] Yeah, definitel. Most Roasters will survive on. The majority will be a little bit lower than eighty six point.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:36:23] It’s logic that market hasn’t matured yet. Yeah. Or of course, for you it’s even a bigger challenge to find that exact market that actually is interested in 86 Thai coffee. But that is quite a dig, I believe.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:36:43] Yeah. I mean, even at eighty six point our per hour cost will be much higher to go where we buy produce something that I’m certain is eighty six will probably be some kind of natural coffee. The risk for getting to that point is so high because you could mess up, there could be rain during the drying process, then you lose the whole lot. So it could . Because to get to eighty six point. You either you have to take a lot of risk, you get eighty six or you get seventy nine, you know what I mean it’s nothing in between. You know.  

Jeroen Brugman: [00:37:15] It’s so much effort.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:37:17] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:37:19] Thailand is really an example in terms of the younger farmers and they’re motivated. There’s there’s also a good local market, right. So local specialty coffee bars, coffee roasters, specialty roasters that connect directly. So the same we have here with the with the with for example, with the maybe it’s a silly example with the milk farmers . Going to them buying the milk from directly from the farmer. Yeah. Exactly that is happening in Thailand. Right.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:37:48] That is happening in Thailand because you have to understand that specialty coffee come to Asia,After it came to in terms of the culture of consumption, but also coffee, specialty coffee in countries like Thailand or even Indonesia and Vietnam, Philippines right now come at a time where peoples purchasing power is already quite high. So it’s so. So coffee is seen as a luxury product. So there are people who are willing to pay a higher price point for these kind of products. I have like European friend, American friend will come to Thailand and see the cost of roasted coffee and 250 grand bags and they were like, wow, that’s more expensive than in the US. But there is a good reason for it, I think, because because farmers are paid high enough price to keep them farming. So I think that ecosystem is really valuable for us. I think to have that local demand absorbing some of the coffee that we produce and growing faster in the country than exporting.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:38:58] So it is a market that you could actually thrive on completely.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:39:03] Before COVID Definitely.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:39:07] Of course,

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:39:08] I’m not sure after I have to see if the culture of, you know, going to cafe, taking pictures. As much as I complain about people who go instagram as all these latte art coffee and don’t really consume coffee for the effort without coffee, without the coffee culture at all. I think we will all suffer. Yeah, I made fun of my friend who is, you know, like latte art champion here in Thailand. And and it’s basically his skill does it doesn’t is not valuable at all. No. I mean, he needs to learn how to roast. He needs to learn to do other things that because people do take away cups now and will consume cold brew at home. So it’s not that it’s a really big deal. I’m not sure you realize how how big deal this is. COVID 19 basically has stopped the coffee culture.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:39:59] It has. Coffee at home, but not enough

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:40:02] Yeah. So now it’s shifting to consuming coffee in Europe. People may already be doing that. In Thailand, in newer countries, that new consumer of coffee is really new to be grinding coffee at home and making coffee from French press, doing this thing with people go to coffee to two as a as a third place as a place where they they’d be seen to hang out with friends, take photos of latte art. And that has completely stopped for three months. And I don’t know if it’s going to come back to the same level. And that’s what I’m really scared.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:40:33] .How would Thai people usually drink coffee at home? 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:40:37] That everyone is. My friends who are roasters, they told me they have been getting inquiries from new consumer who have never, made coffee at home before and how to grind the coffee .Yeah. Can I put a whole bean into hot water and it become coffee. And like there are that kind of consumer that don’t know you have to grind coffee and make it. So it’s good actually because you are creating a new market.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:41:09] Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s opening up. Yeah.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:41:11] Yeah. It’s opening up. So converting those people to the market there will be a market for every roaster to consume. But the people who are hurt the most are the people own brick and entire cafes. Yeah. So it’s also it’s this phenomenon is really interesting.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:41:25] So there is no besides the espresso, it’s espresso culture or  filter coffee culture?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:41:31] It’s it’s espresso, very Australian influenced. Because a lot of our barista lived in Australia and New Zealand before and than come back to Thailand. So, so it’s espresso based but mostly there’ll be milk or something like that. And this is entirely about specialty culture. But then but then there are within those, there’s also something called we call …, which is condensed milk with coffee. Basically. 

Jeroen Brugman: [00:41:58] It’s the same as in the Vietnam.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:42:01] Yes. Similar in Vietnam. Yeah. Similar. Similar to Vietnam.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:42:05] Yeah. Was it was it called. 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:42:06] The Fin, a Vietnamese coffee.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:42:09] Okay. I was thinking about something else but. So that is a traditional Thai coffee? 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:42:15] Yeah a traditional Thai coffee. Usually a lot of robusta dark roast. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:42:20] Or maybe instant coffee in it or. 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:42:23] Instant coffee is also a thing. And so people. So that’s why people asked like, oh, can you just put it in water and then it becomes I can drink it. Right. Because you were also used to instant coffee. Yeah. So it’s now it’s just a new way because if we’re gonna you’re gonna consume so you do coffee, you would go to coffee, but now it is starting to buy more equipment. My bought things I’ve been talking to a lot of friends about educating them quickly about this, about how to drink coffee at home.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:42:51] There might be interesting market. I mean. The way you dscribe it is there is the implementation of a completely new culture. Yeah. On a non-existent existing one. Mm hmm. And it’s probably mainly the younger people that consume coffee in bars and cafes. Yeah.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:43:11] Usually, Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:43:12] Yeah. So it sounds like there’s a there’s a lot of opportunity there for the home consumer as well.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:43:18] Yeah. There is a lot of opportunity for people who can pivot really quickly, but not everyone can. So.So that’s the challenge.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:43:26] Yeah. Yeah. That sounds difficult. Yeah it is. There’s something that’s called the Rogers curve. Have you ever heard of it?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:43:33] No. What is that.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:43:35] Yes. If I mentioned it, you probably recognize it is the curve for innovators. Early adapters, early majority and late majority and the laggards. So it’s more like a trend line. So it all starts with the innovators, they place they put high value in new objects or new trends. so they are the ones that really are willing to pay more to be the first to be. And then, of course, after that come the early adapters. That also value that that’s they pay for the value it brings them instead of they pay for the low price. And it’s the it’s also besides it’s a trend line. It’s also a cultural line. It’s the initiation of a new culture. And it’s that way then then it can grow. Then you can feed it, of course, from the early adapter onwards to the early majority. That’s quite a quite a difficult step. There’s  a step in between, you know, whether it’s. It can be, you know, not revived to whether it can be this scaled up a in a way. But we’re also there’s also a thing halfway the line between early majority and late majority. There is the split line of talking about value and talking about pricing. And would you describe now with the younger generation in Thailand, they’re discovering the specialty coffee. They’re they’re putting value in it. And that is something interesting. That is something that can be they should be fed and that can be grown into a new standard. Yeah,

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:45:25] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:45:25] That’s super interesting. So as for Beanspire, you have been running beans by now for five or six years. Yeah, there’s a lot of coffee growers involved now. You’re also blending up the high quality coffee for which you currently don’t have a market yet. So there’s a good bang for your buck for the ones that are aimed at a high quality coffee, for a reasonable price. For example, that is the Mae Kha Jan blend that have tried to pitch. We actually pitched that to the middle larger roastery here in the Netherlands. But I’m also noticing  there is. You’re completely transparent about every you’re open to receive roasters, to show them around and to connect more. So in that terms, you are more a facilitator of connection between roasters and farmers?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:46:24] Yes, definitely. That that is one part of the job. But then the majority of the past five year has always been, you know, hands on working with the processing, with the producer, with the wet mill that we work with through to improve the quality, to do experiment, making honey making natural. I hope I could get to the point where I can just focus on exporting . coffee comes to me. And I just export what  I think I’m not sure I will get that anytime soon. There’ll be a lot of very time consuming, very, very relational relationship driven as well with the farmers.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:47:07] You mean with farmer.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:47:08] With the farmer. Yeah. And then bringing that relationship, bringing about higher quality coffee connected to to the buyer. potential buyers in Europe, in the US, in Japan and New Zealand.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:47:19] That’s interesting. You have a lot of nice coffees in. I’m sorry. SIRI is now. SIRI is like a wild animal in my room sometimes. But you have some nice coffees. Also one that is by BANGAKOSTSADA CHAIPROM. Yeah. Do I pronounce it right?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:47:39] Bangakotsasada Chaiprom. Everyone in Thailand has a nickname. Everyone in Thailand. Yeah. Everyone in Thailand knows her. SOPA her nickname or former name but. She has an estate, called SOPA’s state. That  she is a producer. So I help her export the coffee that. But it’s really a big risk because it would mean I go because I don’t really have a hand on that coffee that is already good on its own. So I just export that. So all we are doing a lot more of that now, too.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:48:13] It’s a nice coffee.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:48:14] Yeah. But it’s tough to get it without knowing the buyer. So we actually took the risk before we we we found you and a few other buyers because he was sent to Europe without knowing most of the Thai coffee with its higher price point. So Lennart and I and you, when you were working at This Side Up, sort of know where the coffee will go, who will one, how many number of bags. So. So there is some some guarantee of certain demand because it can’t really sit there in the warehouse without knowing the buyer because it’s a bit more expensive than other coffee. So but then for of this coffee that you have, SOPA we  took the risk in the send it and than see if anyone would like it.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:48:57] It’s, it’s quite risky. Of course there’s not many bags but it’s something you probably believe in. And just wanna carry out.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:49:06] Yeah. And then we’re thinking about this year because of COVID 19. Should we send samples should we send coffee. You know we only have Coffee that we farmers that I want to work with. But they have. All right. I have never really worked with them before because they’re already developed themself and good enough to be exported. Should I Should I keep doing that? Because I’m not really not sure about the demand in Europe now.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:49:30] Yeah, there’s a lot higher risk now. Yeah, that sucks. It was a little going quite well. Yeah. So with that, with the whole coffee industry, specialty coffee in particular.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:49:40] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:49:42] That’s it’s too bad. It goes in that direction. So what are your plans for the near future?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:49:53] For the near future? I think, like I said, to survive this ordeal, I like everyone out to to be able to release some of the coffee that we’re stocking and so that we don’t have to carry a lot of that stock when unsold so we basically as a mill and exporter because we don’t just export. We buy the coffee. So we if we get stuck with that, we finance the farmers and then we stock the coffee and we can’t release that stock. Then we don’t know what to do with it. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:50:30] So you already have financed the farmers? 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:50:33] We finance some, we financed throughout the harvest season. Pay them to buy the cherries and than normally all the payment for the farmer will finish at the end of June this year because we can’t sell because we probably are going to ask the farmer if we can delay the payment by by a few months and then pay them in installments instead. So that’s it. You see how the impact is really good. When I explain this to consumer in Europe or buyer in Europe, that how it exactly effect when the market demand crash in Europe. How does it affect us? How does it affect the farmers? Yeah, because some of my men, even in Thailand, they asked to delay the payment.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:51:16] You’re doing like a semi consignment and probably the best part upfront. And then later on, if you sold it, then they get the rest.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:51:24] Yes. Yes. So that is that is tough. What do you call it in terms of morally and ethically as well? Because we haven’t done that before. We always clear the debt by by end of June. But this year we asked that we just don’t have the money to pay because we can’t sell their coffee. So, so, so but we already paid enough that for them to be able to negotiate that thing, I think. Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:51:51] Will you be able to survive. The whole company.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:51:55] I hope so. I hope so. I think it would just be be over. Just take longer to sell. I think eventually we hope to release. I send a lot more sample. I will not know until probably mid-June, which should be in two weeks. People are starting to respond whether they can buy coffee or not. So hopefully your real roaster and have our sample if you could, you know, commit to through buying a few bags that that would help.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:52:25] Yeah. That’s also quite risky for.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:52:28] Yeah. But it’s also risky to put a road there to, to do to to commit early as well.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:52:34] Of course there are also the in terms of the pricing, there’s a unique uniqueness to Thai coffee. Yes. So that you that uniqueness and the fact that it is already a developed country that makes it higher priced.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:52:50] Yes. And that’s another challenge.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:52:53] Exactly. I can imagine for an average roaster to select on quality to avoid Thai coffee in that matter. Yeah. Because of the pricing. 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:52:53] Yeah. And that’s tough for us. So. So it has to be a roaster who really understands sustainability, not just not just quality I think because if I, if I really care only about quality, if I were a roaster then I would just go for Ethiopia, Kenya, you know, maybe some Nicaragua, Honduras. What would work cheap. Really cheap coffee. But I mean, I mean if sustainability if it’s a core interest then that I feel like looking at Thai our coffee me maybe an answer for some roasters.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:53:39] Yeah. It’s, it’s also quite interesting how to instead of this. I’m just thinking out loud here, there’s this brain worm coming by. So in terms of. you’re offering the coffee and the pricing is higher, the quality may be the same as as, for example, an Ethiopian coffee. Of course, due to your circumstances, the pricing side. So how is it possible? What are the options? What are the possibilities to to add some extra value, to make it even more unique? What are the aspects of the coffee that can be emphasized? Are there personal aspects or are there. So it sounds quite challenging, but I’m super optimistic always. There’s always a way to find that person that you seek to serve. Yeah. With your coffee. So, for example, if there is a coffee farmer that has a passion for dancing, then maybe there’s that there’s an option to find a connection with a dancing school. Yeah. Just thinking out loud.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:54:51] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:54:55] It seems like if you’re doing nothing and stay remain if you continue to do business as usual, things will decline. But if you innovate and dig deeper into the market, and don’t see the market as one big cloud. But segment it more. Yeah. And in this case, because you’re already quite in the niche already. Yeah. So I don’t know how much further you can actually zoom in on this. There’s always possibilities.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:55:28] Yeah, I mean we have I have talked to Lennart about doing more more taylor product for each roaster because I think in Thailand in terms of farming structure, it’s very similar to Costa Rica, in the sence that every small farmer has their own wet mill, which means each roaster can be paired up with a single individual farmer. And that is unique to that person. The problem of that will be whether the roaster will be able to buy big enough volume, at least 10 bags in order to make it worth it for that sample to be sent to that roaster.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:56:11] Yeah. Well, even Moore. Yeah. Yeah.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:56:14] Because sending sample at all to Europe. It could cost, you know, up to one hundred dollars to send. Yeah. And if which means if a roasted by less than two bags then we lose money because you know, as an exporter we make we make less than a dollar per kilo.So what would you mean in the 60s. Cagy bag. Our profit is about sixty dollars which means which mean cause of sending. Zambo is already already more expensive than that.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:56:46] So this sounds like there’s a lot of constraints.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:56:48] Yeah. It is constraints to  move that route. But if, if the price point is high enough then it makes sense. And this year we think if if people buying coffee again, we we try to add value on on the bags actually because we we designed the bag so that it’s printed on both sides. Because I have seen our bag getting used to upcycle into jackets, into other things into face masks in the US. So we painted the back of the bag in with a. 

Jeroen Brugman: [00:57:25] with a face mask?

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:57:26] Haha, no!  with a Thai pattern, so. So it’s not just. So it’s not just a blank white space, you know. Yeah, so. So you always do that every time you get our coffee and it can be readily cut into into jacket. If you found a Taylor to do it for you. Yeah. So that’s what I sent a picture to you right now and you can see it on WhatsApp.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:57:51] I have one of your bags here.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:57:53] Yeah. Last year the bag Last year, the back was in screen. This year, both sides will be screaming. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know if you see it. I just sent it to you.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:58:02] oehhh That is nice.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:58:04] Yeah. So. So, so.

Jeroen Brugman: [00:58:05] So when people what it was like is I will post a picture of this online. That is a that is like a designer jacket.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:58:15] Yeah. So I have seen some designer to go back in and turn it into a jacket. So I got an idea from that. Why don’t you just starting thinking from the bag design processed at Origin. How do you take it to two people who can take this back and and turn it into something else?

Jeroen Brugman: [00:58:35] Yeah, that that looks amazing. It looks cool. Yeah. I’m looking forward to it receive one of those. Yeah. Of course. After Covid, there is COVID again, we should talk less about COVID, big item now.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:58:52] It’s important,

Jeroen Brugman: [00:58:54] It’s important that it’s impossible to, to walk around it actually. Yeah. Cool. I think it’s the listeners if, if there’s people that hear this, they get quite a sense of your coffee about the environments. How many farmers are you currently collaborating with?.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:59:16] Oh, we probably do about. It’s hard to count because because we operate in different tier. What we do about 100 this year will be less. Last year we did hundred twenty tonnes. And assuming that each farmer produce about one tonne of parchment on average, then that would be of one hundred twenty farmers.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [00:59:38] But this year we can get to 60 tonnes. That it will be. That will be good enough because we buy cherries and process it. Sometime. The sherry will come  from other farm in the nearby area or passer by that comes sell their coffee. Yeah. So. So it’s really hard to say exactly. Number of farmers and in each farming family has about five people. So so when I say hundred tonne means 120 farmer that you probably should top five and that. Yeah. So. So. So it’s hard to say exactly how many people you would touch but quite quite. Quite a few number.

Jeroen Brugman: [01:00:18] That’s super interesting. I’m enjoying working with you, working with the coffees you export. Yeah. I have a deep respect for the the work that you deliver. Yeah. Also the the pace at which you work. Yeah. When we collaborated on that roastery. Yeah. The document you sent. Yeah. So there was the request for some important documents about the OTA report the ochratoxin A , the mycotoxin report. I was like, oh pfff, even more documents?. Come on, we want to collaborate. We want to bring you closer to Origin. Yeah, it it’s it is bureaucracy that was pulling the brakes on that.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [01:01:06] I mean, in some sense that that’s good to to be that that strict. Yeah. Quite certain then. But then if it’s got too much then  it’s actually a trade barrier. It,  it just wasn’t there.

Jeroen Brugman: [01:01:20] This was too much. This was more out of. Yeah. Of course.  bureaucracy, internal protocols and the lack of let’s say maybe adventurism. That is a bit overdone but yeah. also maybe a bit too, too fearful. Yeah. Just be open 

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [01:01:45] Yeah. I mean a lot of bigger roasters, older roasters are notfamiliar with what would specialty coffee in a sense that a lot of those substance and a lot of those things that they require, you would never see it in specialty coffee that is done in this way. You know what I mean?

Jeroen Brugman: [01:02:03] It’s good. Continuously improving. I mean, it’s not like the traditional trades where people are losing for volume. So you’re trying to. Yeah. cut off the edges and trying to produce more for less. Yeah. Quality goes down and the risk goes up. Yeah. Keep on. Have to monitoring the.

Jeroen Brugman: [01:02:21] What it is, is if you heard of the word KAIZEN? KAIZEN Is a Japanese word for continuous improvement. Yeah, that is what what we are all in the middle of. Like, yeah. Continuously improve the product. So this year is a product. Of course there’s a lot of factors that could make next year’s harvest a lot less. But yeah, we are aiming on making it better every year, every year and every other year. So if you get on board right now, then you are guaranteed of the current quality and you’re kind of also joining the right towards an even better quality and it never more valuable product instead of a cheap coffee that contains a lot of risks as well, and that you need to invest in protocols and bureaucracy and spending a lot of money on marketing and emphasizing the story that is not the inside of it, just creating more value and more transparent products. It’s super logic eventually. Yep. Just it’s a challenge to make people see the added value you are adding to the  world of coffee. Yeah. And in this term, I think I want to conclude this podcast episode as well. Fuadi. I want to thank you a lot for being on this one. Yes, of course. This is the second episode. I’m trying to find the right concept of  to deliver your message, to deliver your work to the consumer. Yeah, I know. Later. I’m just trying. It’s it’s a shot in the dark. I think it is. And also, this is involved in kaizen, continuous improvement. So I want to invite you on a later stage as well to continue the conversation. There’s there’s enough to talk about in coffee.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [01:04:22] Yeah.

Jeroen Brugman: [01:04:22] Is enough enough stories that you encompass in Thailand that you encounter every single person that you collaborate with, every 120 farmers that you collaborate with and some have very unique stories and actually every one of them has a unique story.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [01:04:40] Every  one of us has a unique story.

Jeroen Brugman: [01:04:43] Yeah.It’s we’re all unique and we all have some value to bring and to dive deeper into that. So. So thank you.

Fuadi Pitsuwan: [01:04:53] Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you, everyone for helping and supporting Thai coffee.

Jeroen Brugman: [01:04:58] Yeah. I will add some show notes as well. Yeah. I don’t know your company. So for the ones listening they want to know more about Fuadi and about Beanspire. Yeah. Visit www.beanspirecoffee.com the green coffee is available at this side up. So that’s www.Thissideup.coffee. Yep. And of course some of the coffees I roasts. And there’s also some coffees that are roasted by other small roasters. You can visit ikigai.coffee As well for for some roasted coffees Yeah. So enough of the talking.

Jeroen Brugman: [01:05:37] If you want to find out more about this episode or any other episodes, please visit www.ikigai.coffee and I hope to see there.

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